Fight Club

[tyggerjai]

Brilliant indictment of 20th century consumerism and greed

OR

Self-indulgent whine about how white male privilege isn't all that great because stuff doesn't actually make you happy.

Discuss.

ETA: Yes, it's an OR choice. It could be a brilliant indictment of 20th century consumerism and greed AND a subtle parodic criticism of white male privilege - poor Tyler has 2 jobs and a nice condo and still isn't happy, maybe he should try, y'know, being black and homeless for a night. I don't see it that way, maybe other people do. But if it is a subtle parody of white male privilege, then it isn't a self-indulgent whine.

So that's the question. Is it a legitimate criticism of white male privilege, or a glorification of it?

It occurs to me - if you think it's not an OR choice, ask yourself if you're white, male, educated and employed, and whether that might affect your reading.

Comments

[neefsck.livejournal.com]

Cant it be both ?

On a slightly more serious note ;
What can't it be the almost perfect literary example of 'arts for arts sake'

Don't get me wrong, its a great book, I loved it. However its the *only* book of Chuck Palalaalalahaniuk's that I've read that I actually engaged with on any level.
I find the rest of his writing ...lacking in some way.

While I'd tend towards option 2 - I'd have to say that its more indulgent wankery masquerading as a self help book.

"Throw off the shackles of society and the mores and morals imposed on us!"
Screaming "You can be more!" whilst at the same time saying "You are no better than anyone else"
I find it, at times, contradictory and confusing, with each of the 3 main characters bleating on about the evils and ills of society whilst being wrapped up in their own particular brand of nihilism.


As I said, I liked it, but then again, I really didn't take any message away from it beyond "Cool twist" and "Some nice imagery"

It's a book, It's a story. It's well written, but at the end of the day, we all read into it what we want to see, and as such, it can't be held up to be either an indictment, or a childish tantrum.
Its inherent anarchy and contradiction prevents it from being anything more.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

OR

Long treatise of homosexual self-loathing.

[the-s-guy.livejournal.com]

That's an "or" choice?

[tyggerjai.livejournal.com]

Yup. See my edit.

[neefsck.livejournal.com]

It occurs to me - if you think it's not an OR choice, ask yourself if you're white, male, educated and employed, and whether that might affect your reading


White : yes.
Male : last time I checked : Yes.
Educated : Define Education. I certainly finished High School yes.
Employed : Yes - As I was employed at the time of reading, and seeing this film.

Would it affect my reading of it ? No.

[fnoo.livejournal.com]

Brilliant indictment of 20th century consumerism and greed AND demonstration of the eventual uselessness of nihilism and anarchy.

"This system sucks, but what you're suggesting we replace it with is reactionary rather than a better system."

[saltdawg.livejournal.com]

SOSHIAL EXPErIMENT!

or: Brilliant indictment that was co-opted and misinterpreted by far too many people.

However, it DID speak to me in a way that comparatively few others would have heard it whispering. After your first experience with almost being murdered over nothing, you start to live your life differently. FC just kind of went in reverse. Or something.

[tyggerjai.livejournal.com]

Right! See, this is part of my point - living free from not only the fear of being murdered over nothing but in fact without ever even getting into a fight *is* tied up with white privilege, maybe more class privilege than gender privilege, but that's exactly it. *Having* to seek out a violent death in order to appreciate what you have is a "privilege" that impoverished members of racial minorities may not entirely understand.

Hence, self-indulgent. And to me, I'm not sure that means it can be a brilliant indictment. But I dunno.

[fizit.livejournal.com]

A bloody good perve on some bruised up boys, with a radiohead song along thrown in :P

[saltdawg.livejournal.com]

Um, I was kind of moving in another direction. You are spot-on as far as the AUTHORING of the text goes (I think, at least) but when I realized that I could actually DIE at any given minute I kind of sort of threw "fear" out the window and started to try and pack as much "adventure" as I could into my life, for my own benefit, because I knew there was nothing I could do to become a Cicero, Shakespeare or Montgomery Cliff. Or even a Bukowski.

It is my white privileged to throw my life away BECAUSE nobody depends on me for anything. I don't even have a dog anymore for chrissake. And I have no real effect upon ANYTHING, really. That poor fellow that fell off the dock in Mozambique when he tried to take a leak? The one that work stopped for 3.5 minutes as the other dockworkers casually looked in the water for him? The one that they found 15 miles away, bloated and drounded? He worked his ass off for pennies, and he had a large family. He didn't even have the privileged to try and take a leak during his 12 hour shift.

HEY! I thought I was kind of disagreeing with you, but I ended up making your point!

More "white people" need to get their asses kicked on a regular basis though. Or at least visit an impoverished nation without being part of a Safari Group.

How do the Russians feel about risk Vs. "living"? My Czechz were pretty ambivilant. They had neither privileged OR duty when I was amongst them.

[sly-girl.livejournal.com]

It's supposed to actually be about consumerism, one way or another? Boy - did I watch the wrong movie. (Never read the book.) OK - so they blow up the credit card companies at the end but I just saw that as further evidence that egoistic male adolescent behaviour is stupid. Which is what the whole film was about. Start to finish.

...

I really didn't like that movie. Also - Edward Norton is the least convincing tough guy ever.

[saltdawg.livejournal.com]

read the book.

[tyggerjai.livejournal.com]

Maybe not!
But there's a lot in there about "The things you own end up owning you", especially if it comes from Ikea. Which may be more an aesthetic statement....

[sly-girl.livejournal.com]

No.

[sly-girl.livejournal.com]

Yeh, I guess so. But I find the whole macho wankery reaction to it incredibly off-putting.

Also the bit where they go on about how it's all the fault of women. Never heard that before.

[saltdawg.livejournal.com]

Ikea is the crack cocaine of furniture!

[tyggerjai.livejournal.com]

Exactly - which is part of the white male privilege angle.

[sly-girl.livejournal.com]

Then I guess I'm going for option B - except really all I saw was yet another movie glorifying violent male misogyny.

i'm up to FOUR cents...

[saltdawg.livejournal.com]

The MACHO stuff was an indictment of how far our society has strayed from the traditional "earth-mother" cult, or ISIS or chose your own Ancient cult of femininity...

Historically. the bacchanal cult was both MACHO And feminine. I don't think that's what chuck P. was driving at, but once a book is published, it no longer belongs to the author.

[saltdawg.livejournal.com]

Damn! this already died? I thought we were a shoe in for SF_D!

[damien-wise.livejournal.com]

One of my favourite books and one of my favourite films. They're different, but the film's a wonderful adaptation.
Seconded what Neef said -- Chuck Palahniuk's finest book by a long shot, and David Fincher's finest film.

Have thought through your question and don't see how both interpretations are necessarily mutually exclusive, or how the circumstances of the reader/viewer should make one more or less legit than the other.
Surely, part of the job the author's taken-on here is to open the eyes of the reader and get 'em to think.

I didn't see the story so much as a meditation on the search for happiness, but more about seeking experience and railing against consumerism and male identity in the "white, male, educated and employed" niche that you identified and is the author's target audience.
Does that make it self-indulgent?

FWIW, I'm white and male and "educated", but when I read the book and saw the film, I'd been long-term unemployed and living on/below the poverty-line for a while. Compared with people in most parts of the world, I'm grotesquely privileged now...but was even back then, and there'd be little discernible difference from their point of view. eg: I choose not to drive my car during the week...but I have a car, I have that choice/alternative, and as a result of that choice I still end-up in front on environmental, economic and quality-of-life grounds.

[bunnikins.livejournal.com]

Brilliant whine about how 20th century consumerism isn't all that great because stuff doesn't make you happy. Plus, explosions.

[drbunsen.livejournal.com]

A silly boys-own adventure movie laced with undergraduate philosophy wank that w-a-y too many people take srsly, for all the wrong reasons, plus: cool fight scenes and asploshuns? cf: The Matrix

[kitling.livejournal.com]

Hey, when we went to see the movie, you told me it was all about Soap, with Brad Pitt.

I'm afraid I missed the whole 9/11 thingy on the TV, and arrived at work to check my message log and see a link to some finacial article saying Edward Norton did it, then seeing all the news websites down, and wandering upstairs to see tv footage of people jumping out of buildings and asking what the fuck had happened.

That linked imagery kind of really screwed the movie for me. That said, I haven't read the book

[bunnikins.livejournal.com]

Was I wrong? It has both soap and Brad Pitt, no? :)